The Process of Search Engine Optimisation – Lee Odden Interview


welcome to the more demand podcast where we help you generate more demand for your products and services every episode will give you tips tricks and tutorials on how to get the best out of your digital marketing less frustration more demand here’s your host Laurent outlet with this week’s freshest tips hello and welcome to the more demand podcast episode number 11 with our special guest today none other than liadhan we’re going to talk today with Lee about the process of search engine optimization and how to go through that process step-by-step what Lee is the CEO of Top Rank online marketing the author of optimized and the creator and editor-in-chief of online marketing blog with over 17 years in online marketing and over 10 years in blogging Lee has consulted for numerous fortune 500 companies and presented at conferences all over the world on integrated marketing and PR while he has been cited for his expertise by The Wall Street Journal The Economist and Forbes magazine his kids keeping grounded and focused on what’s most important which today is the process of search engine optimization we’re going to step through each part of that process from planning implementation and how to scale that we’re also going to dive into a bit of influencer marketing and go through everything from keyword research content planning creation and curation content optimization and social network development even touching on link building and reporting as well I think you’re going to get a ton of value today to make sure you’ve got your notepad ready because we have literally gone through everything you need to know about SEO today so without further ado let’s welcome lee onto the call highly thanks for joining us on the show today it’s great to have you on board hey Lawrence it’s good to be here thanks so am yeah we’re going to talk about the process of search engine optimization today and really help our more demand listeners get around the the process of looking at the website and how they can get more visibility in Google and then ultimately obviously more sales leads from that visibility so is a well-trodden ground I think but it’s really something that you have to get right and systemized and get that process working for you so if that sounds good what sort of process would you recommend people looking at when they’re first starting out with search engine optimization that’s a great question and I think so usually people arrive at the conclusion that search engines are an attractive source for new customers from somewhere that either from their own experience looking at competitors or industry media or even shows like this one and and so there’s got to be a little bit more than that so I think one of the first things outside of you know you know obviously a company has marketing goals and they start to dig into okay where are we going to get our customers F should start to sift through some data to understand well to what extent can we expect a new customer acquisition to occur through search and and even look at you know when people buy from us what kinds of questions do they have that can be answered what of those questions are actually being looked for through search you know what i mean so search plays an incredible role at all different stages of a buying cycle and there’s temptations with a lot of folks in the SEO industry to only chase after transaction like you know how much does something costs where can i buy it and that sort of thing versus the early research phases so having goals and understanding why search makes sense for you well how to search fit in your marketing mix i think are really really important decisions to be made so you don’t waste a bunch of your time later on down the road so customer insight an understanding of customer journey knowing what questions customers have relevant to your products and services are absolutely critical for doing the kind of research related to that say keywords to understand demand and one of the valuable things about the initial keyword research one might do is that some Google’s AdWords keywords planner or some other tools can give you a Norman Orma lies number not an you know an exact number but roughly an idea of what demand is for a certain topic and as you sort of add what it is that you do and the problems you solve and all these ideas and topics and whatnot into a keyword research tool it will start to surface to what extent are people actually looking for that sort of thing you know yeah cuz man in a trophy reinking do we we don’t know that’s what we call them here so yeah you know you don’t want to rank for something that’s not relevant or you know no one’s searching for at all sure and not doable yeah that’s another thing yeah so yeah doing some in understanding an understanding of your customers really really really important um and what their experience is like relative to search a comparison of course is people who go well I sell wrenches and you know auto mechanic tools and things like that so I’m going to rank for wrench right that’s that’s what I should do so i’ll put wrench in the title tag wrench in the link anchor text and wrench in the body copy in the headlines and go get a bunch of tweets with the word wrench in it looking back to my page about wrenches and that’s all interesting and I you know I know that’s a joke but it’s a bit of a characterization of what a lot of people are still doing and so that customer insight is really important I mentioned understanding the questions people have that is a good starting point for the content that will really serve your SEO needs in a very productive way yeah I mean sometimes we’ll go about research yeah some of those those customer questions you know what sort of questions could we ask our customers to discover maybe some content that that would help them solve a few challenges absolutely great question so a question about how to find questions actually so I think one of the most important things you can do and right away if you have a contact form on your website that allows people to type in text a text area form field so what do you want us to do for you go look at that look what at what are people saying there what literally what are they saying there and that can surface that can be one source of insight into what questions people have you can also of course use keyword research tools and take a look at what kinds of questions people are asking from a search standpoint relative to what your products and services are another thing is you can go to Google Webmaster Tools and look at the top queries that are surfacing page views for your website and see if there’s any you know the syntax is a in the form of a question in there to see what people are looking for right if you have an internal search engine on your website so once people arrive and you’ve got a lot of content and you’ve applied some kind of you know like I said internal search engine if that’s logging queries you can look for people look for the questions there in the logged queries that people are asking so those are the couple of different places that are data centric you can probably hit right now yeah just got one to add to that sorry because a lot of our listeners haven’t got you know that just literally starting out so they may be not have that in place already but you can go to somewhere like Amazon for example if your if your product business and have a look at the products that are already on there and what customers are saying about them you know what the negative reviews what challenges are they having with that product and do some reviews sorry some research that way yeah yeah you can go to quora or quora how everyone say it you know question-and-answer sites and that sort of thing and then you can literally just ask them if you have existing customers you can do surveys and polls you can use tools to pop up surveys on your site as visitors you know come about looking for things and and that sort of thing you can also do some you know analysis of your existing content to see what pages are people hitting and all that adds up to some insight about what it is that people want to know and and that’s an active effort so you don’t just do it once you do it on an ongoing basis just like you should be optimizing your site for better performance on an ongoing basis and that can inform content so you reconcile ok here’s what people are searching on relevant to my business so i’m going to make sure i have that represent my content here’s the questions they want answered the answers which will pull them towards you know closer to becoming a customer well I’ve got to make sure that content is on my website so you’ve got those keywords you’ve got those that back content and you’ve got to create those things and you have gotta be what I like to call the best answer for whatever it is your customers are looking for and that is in the content on your site and it also is things off of your website yeah so what so place is off your website would you maybe looked I mean we know about this sort of guest blogging opportunities that they’re available but you know those question and answer site swatch what sort of sites could we we maybe have a look at to put content out there one of the ways they think about it is is if Google didn’t exist at all and i know that’s a little bit cliche but it’s so important that you are hustling to get publicity about your business online offline and you’ve got to have clarity on how it is that you want to be known what is it that your buyers care about most and how can you be that thing and you can translate that sort of idea into keywords but in terms of off-site promotion publicity is is is absolutely critical industry publications on blogs industry influencers and certainly social networks so can you create the kind of content that’s so good people will talk about it if you’re not then you’re at a disadvantage because your competitors are doing that very thing so now let’s say okay now Google exists we’re creating content that’s so good that we’re and we are promoting it we’ve got an email list we have channels of distribution because we built up social network so whenever we create something really new and interesting we promote it we promote it to our audience that’s looking for that kind of thing and they in turn will promote it we will maybe write guest posts we will write contributed articles to industry magazines online and offline to newsletters do interviews there’s so many different things you can do by being an active participant in your industry that results in off the site signals a credibility back to your website yeah exactly and I picked out one so key word there was was influencer and and that is a real hot topic influencer marketing and it really does go back to you know that I think you call them Bob in in the same with business over breakfast we’ve got BNI over here and it’s that sort of relationship where you’ve got people that are recommending you for certain things and it’s using that that influence our your network to really amplify your your content reach absolutely I you know in the way that specificity is important as it when you’re in playing the influencer game meaning that if someone can be singularly identified as an authority for a thing it makes it really easy for you to remember that you know you’ve met someone ever and they’ve said yeah what you asked for my hate what do you do and they say this this this this this this this this this and yeah absolutely need all those ideas are competing with each other just like if you try to optimize one web page for twenty different words that’d be silly they all compete against each other none of them stands out Google doesn’t notice that you stand out and therefore doesn’t rank you highly in the same way in the real world working with influencers also involves becoming influential and so it’s really important that you have that clarity and singularity of purpose you can expand of course to other ideas but to really stand out be specific and and in getting recommendations from other people you’ll be able to sort of optimize the likelihood of people recommending you if it’s really easy for them to understand what you stand for and how you solve problems for people and that’s a big part of networking and we work extensively with influencers industry influencers and we do all kinds of things from you know inspiring advocacy and recommendations to a lot of content co-creation and it’s so good for SEO and the influencers do most of the work and everyone gets exposure it’s kind of a win all around kind of situation yeah exactly and you know you’re helping each other that the wheels are turning and it’s that snowball effect of amplifying your content out there through you know people who have got made be a larger audience than you and you know to begin with but the one thing about influencer marketing is don’t just go to the influence and say hey I’ve got this great thing post it to your Twitter account because that’s not like that is not going to work there are strategies involved round influencer marketing so you you know you have to have a much software approach try and help the influence of first see what you know you can help their audience with and then build a relationship just as if you would you meeting them you know a networking event for the first time you wouldn’t just go up to them and shove content straight in their face so yeah just be a bit careful on that one I think this is true this is true and it makes a difference we like the segment in the broadest sense the difference between brand dividuals and niche influencers Brenda viduals are tend to be popular but Nietzsche influencers actually create popularity people listen to what they say people act on what they say they tend not to have you know super massive fans friends and follower lists but you know they have substantial followings and there’s a temptation sometimes to go for those high Twitter follower accounts or those people who are only writing books and speaking and you know being famous I guess and there’s some validity to that because celebrity endorsements work but when we’re talking about when the audiences in the millions you know what I mean versus with most businesses or small businesses whose influential who’s a brand dividual you know you want to find people who are often cited as an expert who have you know lots of folks pointing to them a good reputation solid authorities you know they are consistently delivering something really good those types of folks tend to be not quite as popular but man when they talk people listen you know yeah definitely I’ve got you know name is flying through through my head already you know Amy Porterfield Pat Flynn you’ve got Johnny Dallas you know all those guys and girls that they’re absolutely doing that you know when they say something or when they launch a product you know it’s going to be right because they have built that credibility up absolutely and you know the thing about working with influencers is is that you know you’re right when you said you don’t just walk up and go hey here’s some content promoted or the like the analogy I like to use is someone walking up to you in a pub in saying hey let’s get married and yeah well wait a minute no you are Oh what’s going on here maybe some people will say yes but most of us aren’t going to say yesterday tell you no longer thing yeah um so that there’s ways to engage in advance in a way and what we found to be magical is find out what the influencer is not getting most of them do appreciate exposure and Brenda viduals like explicit exposure they just fade love attention so if I know that when I approach them I adjust my messaging accordingly if I have an itch influencer and I find that a lot of senior executives at brands you know they’re they’re busy doing their job not trying to be famous in yet because they have a high-profile brand and job they are known but they have a lot of authority and a lot of times you know the approach for them is going to be a bit different so they appreciate recognition or they appreciate you know the attention to but they wanted to be legitimate recognition you know / individuals are as I said all about you know the attention and and all that celebration of whatever it is that they they care about on each influencer often is inspired by contributing to the greater good and as well as legitimate recognition so when we approached them a brenda vigil we literally can just come out and say hey I notice you’ve contributed to these other things love to see it we’d like to invite you to be a part of this thing over here and that works pretty well because they’re already playing that game where is an influencer you know you work up to it and there’s a little more romance and involved and a few dates before the pub drop the question at the moment yeah sure you know is is I’m they both got their own own place and they’re both got their own tactics involved and as you said they can really really start to amplify your content and get you in front of an audience that you haven’t got access to right now and that all comes back to you know having the right content in place making sure that research has been done so that you can then pump the right content out to the right people I think yeah exactly you know the weight that there’s a there’s a lot of congruence between working with influencers and content and SEO and the way that is it works is is that when you do your keyword research you understand okay this is what people are looking for relevant to my business and of course i’m going to make pages and content and infographics and videos and all these other media types to talk about that topic but if i can use those keywords so if i get some influencers to co-create content with me so i can do interviews with a more I can just get tips from them or whatever I’m going to use my keywords in the questions right because if I’m clever about that and I use synonyms and derivatives of my primary keyword targets in a series of interviews with people who are influential about that very thing their answers are really going to be helpful to my SEO does that make sense and and and when you get into the social sharing you’ve got you atomize the long-form content they’ve given you into very SEO friendly messages that are also very social media friendly yeah so we’re trying to you know then look at the keywords is a hashtag and maybe putting those in is not the sort of path we’re thinking about right keywords in in a tweet that has a link for example any public social content that has a link that also has words in it yes like that or you could have the words in the short URL right you could have your keywords in the short URL or and you could have keywords in a hashtag wouldn’t do them all in one tweet that be a little bit spammy yeah yeah sure he’ll or the orange juice come repetitive it would seem repetitive i almost said redundant but that means different things to me that it might to you yeah but but it is something that is useful and and i think that when we use an approach called modular content that allows for the organization of lots of contributors different contributors along a theme that then makes it a lot easier you output very relevant organic optimized content that’s tell me a bit more about the modular content is that is that a little bit like silos or is that is that different well you’re you’re identifying how a content asset will be broken down into its component parts in advance so using themes or keywords we use the keywords I’ll just say keywords for the sake of this conversation but usually just say topic or theme so we use the keywords as inspiration for the people that we network with and for the questions we ask them we also use those keywords you know as inspiration for organization of the contents you have a spreadsheet and you have your target phrases and subordinate phrases or derivatives and as you collect tips or useful information statistics whatever it might be from primary sources or secondary sources you organize them into that spreadsheet in a short form right and and then you create a taxonomy within that spreadsheet so here’s a list of statistics and here are the keywords or tags if you will categories that they’re relevant to here’s a list of tips here’s a list of quotes and so forth so now you have this nice organized tagged keyword tag a collection of micro content in its modular in that when you create templates for your content itself whether it’s email or not email whether it’s a blog post or an e-book or an infographic or whatever you can literally draw from your spreadsheet of modular content or micro content like ingredients from a recipe yeah go ahead and so there’s natural writing involved here of course it’s not all automatic that’d be silly but no one would like that no one would love that and you want people to love your content not just Google so buddy but it’s used as seasoning ingredients seasoning whatever the metaphor yes we do remember that yeah yeah I think it’s like for me that that takes me back to my university days where you are tasked with writing an essay and you’ve got to almost prove what you’ve talking about by putting the the is it and we use the Harvard referencing system and for that and it’s like those little bits of content that you say well i think this about this subject but here’s Neil Patel talking about you know how he did that at crazy egg is the tweet about it is this and it’s just those little bits of content that you can put in that all of sudden your content has much more valued than maybe just your own opinion absolutely the third party credibility that comes from third parties so it’s it’s a bit egocentric for us and I’m guilty of this as anyone to expect marketing content to completely come out of our own brain and not involve anybody or anything else and while it may be brilliant information the credibility of it is enhanced by citing other sources by studying other pieces of information especially tips and statistics and quotes and that sort of thing yeah I think you know that that’s where you know the rise of the infographic came as well and it’s it’s nice to hear that you know you don’t have to have all of this data yourself you can just go out there and take case studies and things that other people have done and reference that in your own content and all of a sudden you you’re building content a lot faster a lot more efficiently than then you would be trying to think I’ve got to do all these tests myself I’ve got to split test this I’m going to show this and you can go out there and it’s already there for the taking you’ve just got to pull it together create it and then then get it out there and amplify it absolutely and it’s you know the fun thing about working with influencers is that you know while one person might want to have an influencer collaborate so that you can have access to their audience but another benefit is is that by making something together you’re creating a an experience for them and it’s not unreasonable to think that you wouldn’t be able to identify people that would be buyers of your products or services that are a little bit influential and to invite them to make something together make some kind of content together and you’re not selling them anything but you’re inviting them to do this thing that’s again for the greater good and you know you create this awesome thing and you promote it and everyone gets visibility and now what do they think of you right they didn’t even know you existed before yeah and now they have an impression of you and you didn’t you weren’t pushing anything on them you weren’t trying to sell them anything but I tell you what they’re a lot closer to considering those ideas than they were before yeah and obviously you’ve got that association with the influencer as well so you’ve got that yes ability transfer yes and and that’s you know if we’re going into sort of link building that’s almost how Google’s thought about it with you know if this page links to that page from this domain then we’ll pass some Authority some credibility on to you and and and goes into those those link building tactics so I think what what’s our I mean I hate link building i’m just going to throw out there I I hate I’m not a link builder I you know I have a team that do that so what are some of the the things that you can do to one attract links organically you know on their own link bait if you like and and then some of the more go and get it proactive link building tactics that were out there well the reason the link build is to drive traffic and to create signals of credibility for humans and and also google so i think having clarity on why will help guide the tyne signs of tactics that will keep you out of trouble or or at least help you manage risk yeah traditionally SEO has been a lot about managing risk whether people were careful about that or not you know who knows but disavow two hands up yeah yeah and and so like hey we I could do that I could play that game or I could play the game where you know what nothing i’m doing here is probably ever gonna fall under that kind of microscope because it’s very very focused on again to some degrees if the search engine didn’t exist so publicity is a big deal here i think so there’s a couple things with link building or activities I’d like to think of it this way Lawrence I think like to think of it is what can you do to promote and publicize your company in a way that result in attention and links back and I know that I sound like semantics but there is a bit of a difference it was my mobile my goal is to have exposure to an audience and if that publication that gives me that exposure that new audience also links to me great if they don’t you know what if they’re really interested they’re going to search for my company named after reading the article and they’re going to find me that way yeah so part of being effective at link building is creating a good good reputation it just makes it easier to get linked to if you create a consistent profile across the web or you are you have a great reputation as a quality source of information there’s an expression the richer the more money you have the more the more money you make the more money you make yeah yeah there is get rich or whatever yeah money attracts money yeah exactly so um creating that positive reputation if we think of it in terms of reputation creating a positive reputation by contributing to industry articles magazines blogs speaking in the real world networking the real world networking online as well all creates positive signals of reputation and when you are think of that as a layer or one part of what you do you’re really warming the field to your subsequent link building efforts because you’ve got this your positive reputation as being a good you know a good brand a good person or whatever but also a source of really good information really good content so creating content worth linking to of course it is a idea and you can use cool tools like buzz sumo to find out what is that the people are sharing what are they linking to orbit Jesta core hrs or whatever to find out what it is it that what kind of content are people linking to relevant to your keywords but but starting to then again contributed articles to industry publications is a great idea multiple publications writing provocative and compelling content on your own and then creating really I don’t know really really interesting content like things that inspire links back here’s something that I did years ago and I’m sorry that probably won’t work today but it was constantly um so years ago there’s well there’s two things one was and this goes way way back I noticed this is way back when blogs are fairly new and one of my team members created this cool little widget that would easily output subscriber links that you can this all comment now but it wasn’t at the time so is an RSS tools what it was called it was back when people still used RSS anyway so the output of using this tool where you put in your feed and it would output this array of little links you put a copy and paste into the sidebar of your blog and then at the bottom it said get your own RSS tool hundreds of thousands of blogs did this they use this tool and they link back to our website yeah hundreds of thousands of course you know you can’t do that now because google says don’t do that but it was amazing um another example was um I output a list of blog search marketing blogs like 200 or so that I had been following and I put it up as a blog post and I said hey this is the big list of search marketing blogs other people had put up similar list before what was different about this one is that instead of copying you know the descriptions from Twitter or from their company website I wrote the descriptions myself so they were unique in a little bit snarky sometimes sarcastic even but in a complementary way and then um I said on there well I’m not if you ask for a link I’m not going to give it to you but if I notice you I might consider you because i started doing reviews of blogs every week after that and i would add them to the big list right I can’t tell you people figured out I didn’t set it right away but people like okay if we link to him if we mention his list then he will heal you know he’ll be looking in his web analytics and we’ll get on his radar and then he’ll consider our blog for inclusion in the big list right that generated a massive number of links without ever asking anybody to link to us well that’s a great idea definitely so that you could still do today you could still do that today create a collection something that doesn’t exist create a collection of disparate resources in one place and and and package it in a useful or fun way in a using a metaphor um and and if you do that and someone could still do that by the way with marketing blogs because technorati is gone in a useful way how many collections of marketing blogs are there really yeah so um so one could do that but the component that made it work wasn’t just making the list it was every week or maybe ever yet every two weeks adding three or four more and featuring one like hisses rbol this is our blog of the week that we’re featuring and then there’s we are adding five or so five made the cut into our list and then you’re consistent about doing that over time so the cyclic allottee of creating attention and recognizing people or recognizing companies and brands creates a lot of credibility for you and it makes it attractive for others to link to you yeah I think that that organic approach that you know not not going out there and just trying to well even just by a thousand links you know those days are gone but people still still believe in the hope that that that’s the silver bullet that works but it just goes back to consistent building over time and thinking of it you know think of it as as I think Matt Cutts put it if you’re in a room of people new going around with a megaphone you were shouting in their faces you know yeah you must link to this he was think it’s not going to work but if you have time and conversation with those people and build up a rapport then yes they are you know more likely to link to your content over time once you’ve delivered some value to them absolutely absolutely so in it’s true it’s true that you can still you know use tools to surface people that have broken links of resources on their website you reach out to them say hey I know she got this really cool list of resources about XYZ and I noticed you got some broken links and you know if you’d like we actually have an updated brand new resource that you might want to link to and get rid of those broken links people still do that and that actually still works sometimes I don’t do that but you can still use some of those old-school tactics but the operative word is what you just head and that is creating value yeah yeah definitely so well once we have have done that and and we’ve you know we’ve done a research now we’ve we plowed out our content and we’ve amplified it we’ve reached out to influences we’ve built some some really credible links how do we report on that how do we know that we’ve done the right thing or it’s it’s it’s a success you know how do you actually bring that back and go do you know what that bit of content over that bit worked more successfully or not how does that work well we use an attract engage convert model for measurement so it starts with what are your goals and from a keyword standpoint mapping keywords to the content itself so you know in our optimization plan we’re going to identify the key words we want to be found under that customers are looking for and we’re going to map in a and in a grid okay this page is optimized for this this page is optimized for that and so on and so forth so that when we look at web analytics and we look you know even though it says not provided we know that well organic search drove most of the traffic to that page and that page is optimized for X and the ranking report says that page ranks really well for X as well and in Google Webmaster Tools there are signals that lead us to believe that that page is relevant for X now we can start to figure out okay from an organic standpoint you know that particular page or a cluster of pages is attracting you know traffic and then using web analytics we can figure out subsequent steps clicks through the site to a conversion and so we can make the association that okay organic traffic drove trap drove visitors we don’t know exactly what words but generally we can make an assumption thank you guys yeah to a particular page and then with with our with the tracking built within our analytics then we can follow that visitor to conversion and know that okay this particular phrase roughly is effective for generating conversions it’s successful or it’s not and I know there’s a lot of fuzziness in that but you know attract occation verte is but that that’s like the simplified way of I guess explain answering your question attract engage convert means its content centric and that we’re making sure we’re measuring the things that inform us that any given piece of content is attracting the right audience in the right ways according to our hypothesis or premise and that is engaging them in the right ways and there’s key performance indicators for each of these four for attraction you know so search organic search referred traffic direct traffic or social traffic whatever advertising direct links and what not engagement is the consumption of the content interaction with the content and of course conversion is anything that involves a form yeah yeah sure enough i think you know some people get really had a pond on it just being a direct funnel this bit of content has to deliver this amount of leads whereas actually it’s not that director of a funnel it could be multiple multiple touch points before they’re even in the funnel and you know so it’s not that and when they’re in the funnel then we want other bits of content to interact in there as well and it’s just not a direct funnel so if I put that in in the listeners heads and I’m sorry but you know you don’t want to think of it as straight down the line because it’s just rarely happen like that right you’re going to find that um you know people it’s the buyer journey is not typically linear no I agree absolutely um and and people will you’ll find the funniest things you people start with something specific or they’ll start with something very general like I don’t know they’ll start with a broad phrase like what is this right reflective of the problem they’re trying to solve yeah and then they’ll start to go down the path and get more and more specific and then right before you think they’re going to buy something they’ll jump all the way back like what is this again yeah like they want to validate their premise in the first place you know so yeah it’s kind of an interesting thing so before we wrap thing I think there’s been an absolute ton of value given across today and I think you know hopefully we haven’t bent people’s minds too far and and you know people explode you know whoever what what are you looking ahead to in 2016 for search engine optimization or all online marketing in general what do you think is going to be the the big thing if you could if you could pick one thing just one thing yeah I’m gonna make I’ll pick one thing on the hot spot right now Wow well you know I mean you have to look at I guess I’ve I was going to invest heavily in one thing I’d make him I would make it mobile um and I know it’s been the year of mobile for the last 10 years but you start just you know you see some pretty important metrics like the the number of you know there’s more smartphones and there are being sold then there are laptops or desktops you know as an example or wile e commerce through mobile devices is still you know just a percentage of overall ecommerce the upward and to the right hockey stick growth of it is would be it’d be crazy to ignore that oh definitely so I was just at a customers this morning and they sell when baby products I their mobile is ninety percent of their e-commerce sales because the the mum has the baby in the hand and the the you know in the arm and that the mobiles in the other and it’s ninety percent of their ecommerce stuff but they’re only converting it to percent and on desktop there at ten so we need to do some work on their mobile stuff there’s a lot of money left on the table but it just goes to prove how big an important that is you know over desktop now they’re like no the mobile site has to be right absolutely and you know it it all the thing about answering the question about well what is the right thing to do when it comes to search or any kind of marketing and people are scrambling for you know things they’re scrambling for tactics and that and that’s all fine then you should but I think the common ground the thing that never changes is an understanding of your customer behaviors if you focused on that always and proactively looking to update your understanding of what your customers want the technology trends the tactics and whatnot they will reveal themselves to three your understanding of actual customers so it may be true that for the majority these folks these days that mobile is the answer but for someone in some another situation there may be this insight that they have about their customers that no mobile is not it’s something else so I think that’s that’s the focus and that’s what will reveal the real answer for any one individual company and the market they’re selling to yeah exactly I’ve got a customer in Africa and he was mentioning that the actually internet marketing is not that big over there at the moment I’m sure isn’t in some parts but in this particular part he was actually that it’s all SMS texting it’s yes that’s exactly how it’s working on the ground of the minute because you know the smartphone penetration hasn’t happened there yet and so it’s completely different it’s understanding your audience that unless you know that you just you could be going down a rabbit hole this way too deep and you’re not going to be out of back out of it because you invested too much exactly so yeah before we before we wrap things up today because i think you know as I said we’ve covered a lot of ground here and let our listeners know where they can connect with you and find out more more about you well um i blog i’ve written 1.3 million words about internet marketing at top-ranked blog com t OU pran k blog com so there’s a place to find me i’m active on the twitter at le e 0 dden and of course i’ve written a book about all not so much about the olympians or stuff but about planning implementation and scaling an integrated approach to SEO social and content and it’s a book called optimize and you can just go to google and type in the word optimized with a Z or and s it should show up if for some reason it doesn’t go to optimize book calm and you’ll be able to find it well that’s great thing thanks leifer for joining us today on the more demand podcast it’s been an absolute pleasure talking to you it’s been great speaking with you tool arts Thanks so that’s it folks for this week i’ll be sure to you next Wednesday for another episode of the more demand podcast until then we’ll see you later thanks for listening to the more demand podcast make sure to hit that subscribe button on itunes and get the latest episode direct to 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